Writing Standout Recipes and Navigating AI as a Food Creator

Bjork Ostrom: As you know are listening to the Food Blocker Pro Podcast, but maybe you didn’t know that We actually have a membership for food creators and food publishers like yourself. We’ve actually had this option for 10 years. We talk about it occasionally on the podcast, but recently we had this realization of like, we need to let people know that we have a membership because sometimes people don’t know that exists. And there’s a lot of really incredible resources within a Food Blogger Pro membership. We have a community forum where we have FBP, Food Blogger Pro industry experts, a lot of people who you probably recognize from this podcast. We have a deals and discounts exclusive to members page where you can get access to discounts and some of the most popular tools for creators, A bunch of different courses on photography and video and SEO. And then we do these live Q&As with experts.

Like recently we did one on SEO and republishing. We talked to Eddie from Raptive and he has years of experience in the world of publishing, and he talks about why the process of republishing is so important. I also do these coaching calls with Food Blogger Pro members that we record and then we make available to everybody to watch and to learn and to listen. And these are one-on-one calls with other publishers or business owners to talk through the strategy for growing their business. And the cool thing about these live q and as these coaching calls is we actually wrap those up into a podcast that’s exclusive for members. So maybe you listen to the Food Blogger Pro podcast and you’re like, I wish there was more episodes that you could listen to and learn from. Well, you get access to additional content, additional podcasts if you join Food Blogger Pro. So if you want to check it out, you can go to food blogger pro.com and click the join now button and you get access to everything when you sign up the back catalog of all the live q and as, all the coaching calls, all the courses, all the deals and discounts and immediate access to the community forum. So again, if you want to check that out, go to food blogger pro.com and we would love for you to not just be a podcast listener, but also to be a member.

Emily Walker: Hey there, this is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team and you are listening to the Food Blogger Pro podcast. This week on the podcast, Bjork is interviewing Raeanne Sarazen. She is the author of the book, the Complete Recipe Writing Guide, mastering Recipe Development, writing, testing, nutrition Analysis, and Food Styling. This book is over 400 pages filled with everything you need to know to develop and write a really good recipe. Rand argues that the quality of the recipe is what differentiates really successful food creators from the rest of the pack. And she says that just because somebody can cook it doesn’t mean they can write a recipe. In this interview, she walks listeners through the recipe development process and shares her tips for writing a user-friendly recipe and discusses the importance of recipe testing. Bjork and Raeanne also share their thoughts on artificially generated recipes and how food creators can use AI when developing recipes and writing content. The whole interview really is about how to differentiate yourself as a recipe creator, and it’s a good reminder that the fundamentals of recipe development are really, really critical to what we do as food creators. As a reminder, if you enjoy this episode, please share it with your followers on social media or email. We really appreciate it, and without further ado, I let Bjork take it away.

Bjork Ostrom: Rayann, welcome to the podcast.

Raeanne Sarazen: Thank you Bjork for having me here today. I’m super excited.

Bjork Ostrom: Yeah, it’s high fidelity, I can tell you’re in the Midwest. There’s no internet delay here in Chicago. We’re in the Twin Cities. This is going to be a great conversation. We’re going to be talking all about recipes makes sense for the world that we are in and that we talk about, but also recipes as they relate to digital platforms. We’re going to be talking about AI, but before we get into that, what is your background? We’re going to be talking about the book that you published, which is, it’s called the Complete Recipe Writing Guide, and it really is complete, it’s hundreds of pages about recipes and for people who create content, like anybody who listens to this, they need to read books like this. It’s kind of their textbook on how to approach recipes. But how did you get to the point where you could write hundreds of pages about recipes,

Raeanne Sarazen: Like over 400 pages on one single topic? Yeah. Okay. So I’m Raeanne Sarazen, and I know sometimes my name is a little difficult to pronounce, so I said it again,

You and I both. And so I am a registered dietitian nutritionist and classically trained chef. And I’ve worked in the food industry in a variety of different roles in capacities for over 25 years. So I have worked in hospitals as a clinical dietician. I’ve worked in restaurant kitchens as a cook. I have worked in food publishing as a food writer editor and test kitchen professional and in different capacities and food companies, nonprofits and healthcare organizations as a culinary nutrition consultant. And the thing that has been a common denominator throughout all these different roles has been the use of recipes in recipe content. And so that is sort of how my background came to be that made me of interest by the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, who’s the publisher to be the author of this book.

Bjork Ostrom: That’s great. So one of the things I like thinking about in the world of digital media is that a lot of what we’re doing is creating a digital version of the thing that we’ve always done. An example is on a website, they talk about this idea is the content above the fold, and it’s like, well, what does above the fold mean? Well, it actually is talking about when you had a newspaper and you’d fold it and then you would put it on the newspaper stand. It was really important for things to be above the fold because that’s what people would see when they walk by in our world right now, they talk about a recipe card and what is a recipe card? Well, a recipe card is the digital version of the literal card that you’d give somebody if you wrote down a recipe. I’m curious to hear your reflections on 25 years of being involved with recipes and the importance of recipes, sharing recipes like documenting recipes. Well, what are the things that you see as the through line that have continued through those 25 years? And then we’re going to talk about things that are maybe different today than they would’ve been 20, 25 years ago.

Raeanne Sarazen: So I guess the through line that I would see is that there’s somebody always out there creating really good recipe content. And a long time ago, which you can say 25, 30 years ago, there were gatekeepers and those gatekeepers kept only a certain type of person writing. And that could have been back then food writers test, kitchen professionals, cookbook authors, home economists. They were the ones that were creating mostly good content, I would say, but not always. And so I think today the difference is is that anybody can write a recipe, but I think it still holds true that you have to ask yourself is what is produced today always good, and do they have what used to be done, which is copy editors and several lines of people editing. So yeah, I guess the through line is I do think there’s really good recipe content today, but I think it’s because there is a lot of focus and importance to that creator on what the actual recipe, what it really is doing for their audience.

Bjork Ostrom: So you have these people who have great recipes 20, 25 years ago that might’ve been my grandma or Lindsay’s grandma, really loved cooking. And we have some of those recipes that are still such great recipes, but they wouldn’t have necessarily been a publisher of recipes unless they knew somebody who is one of these gatekeepers, cookbook publisher, something like that where they’d be able to then say, Hey, you have a bank of enough of this that we think that we can invest in you. In that scenario, there’s also then going to be a team that reviews the recipe that does testing of the recipes. One of the good things is with the internet, anybody can share a thing. And so now you’re able to get access to some of these recipes that maybe you wouldn’t have been able to get access to 25 years ago. But with that reduced friction in publication, there’s also the reality of I could publish a recipe and that’s not going to be good because I’m not going to be able to produce a recipe like my wife Lindsay would. And so as friction is reduced, output is increased, and then now the user maybe has to do a little bit more filtering of those recipes. Is that the downside of it? Or on the flip side, what are some of the negatives of the change in the ability for anybody to publish a recipe?

Raeanne Sarazen: Well, I guess this is what I would like to be super clear on. I think that just because somebody can cook doesn’t mean that they can write a recipe. And I think what is super clear on that is I’ve worked with a lot of incredibly well-known chefs, super talented creative people who can create something in the kitchen, but that’s cooking or development. And then there’s the actual translation of what their creation is onto the page. And that’s the recipe. And I think that even if our grandmothers, which my grandmother owned a restaurant in Ottumwa, Iowa, and she was a fabulous cook, and I spent so much time trying to document and work with my brother who’s a filmmaker, to translate and watch her and put it onto the page to keep it for future generations. It’s sort of documenting your food heritage. But I think that what differentiates really good people and their content, I think is their recipes because there is the entertainment which you could tell me all about, and I get that, and there is the creative part. But to write a really good recipe, that recipe has to be written well, there’s the importance of testing the recipe, which no recipe could be written. Well, if it’s not tested, that’s very clear to me on the recipes. I see. And yeah, I would say that I think content was not always perfect back then or today, but it’s the importance of understanding that cooking is different than writing.

Bjork Ostrom: Yeah, I think of, we have friends who live in Indianapolis just recently interviewed them. I’m not sure when the episode’s coming out, their site’s called a Couple Cooks. But one of the things we often talk about on the podcast is sometimes people will look to do a career change and their career change will be into, Hey, I want to produce content online. I want to figure out how to either grow a social following or grow a website. In our world, it’s within the realm of food. And one of the things we always talk about is, Hey, look at what you were doing, even if it seems completely unrelated, and how can that benefit you? And I think of Alex and Sonia because they were worked within both of them. It was the same company. They were technical writers, and so it’s not recipe documentation, but they understand and understood as they transitioned into this career how to write documentation around steps really well. And my guess is I haven’t ever really talked to them specifically about it, but my guess is that probably served them well to have gone through the process of a decade or however long it was of writing instructional information for people that get, I don’t know what some product, and then have to understand how to use it to then apply that to the world of recipes and to give people really clear instructions to follow. So let’s say somebody is really skilled at cooking, and that’s kind of the artistry of it. It feels like it’s a little bit left brain, right brain. Whereas then you kind of take some of that abstract, almost like in music, you can have people who can play music really well, they can jazz or blues. But then if you would be like, alright, now we’re going to put that, we’re going to document that, they’d be like, well, don’t, that’s not what I do. That would

Sound terrible. And it’s not exactly the same, but I would imagine that to be true in the world of food a little bit as well. So if you are somebody who has that kind of right brain, you like to cook, you like the process of coming up with a new recipe, how do you get that into a form that then is actually really helpful? So somebody in the music world could look at it and be like, Hey, I understand what this is. Do you think people should try and be that? Should they try and do that or does it make more sense to bring somebody in who is good at that and let that person do it?

Raeanne Sarazen: That’s exactly what I was just going to say. I think what has changed in the food industry and food publishing is that there used to be segmented roles. You were a developer, you were a tester, you were a writer, editor, copy editor, you were the graphic design, you were the photographer or videographer. I think today it’s sort of taking note of what you do well and where you should hire out for where you’re not as good. And also using a book like mine as a resource, especially when you’re starting out, because it’s really hard to be able to afford to hire out people, and at least you can educate yourself. Even in terms of the writing of the recipe where it’s true, a lot of creative people can’t translate and document to technical clear, succinct writing. They’ll take something like making a pie dough that’s three paragraphs long and I can edit it down to one paragraph that’s more clear and helpful to the end user. But I’d say you hire somebody to do it for you or you sort of learn and read some of the common things that you yourself need to know on how to write clearly. For an example, the cardinal rule of writing the recipe ingredients and the order that they’re used in writing the directions in that same order of how they’re used in the ingredient list, it seems so clear. But again, that’s something that I’ll get a recipe where they’re out of order, they’re missing ingredients. The use of divided ingredients is super unclear. The use of a description, like a modifier in the ingredient list where it would be something like canned or chopped cooked, diced, the word is put into a place that makes it very confusing for the reader. And I know what that chef or that cook wants to say, but the end user could just be scratching their head wondering, wait, what am I supposed to do? Or what am I supposed to buy at the grocery store?

Bjork Ostrom: So I think that’s a great one and just a good reminder. I’m guessing a lot of people kind of have that in their mind as they’re going through the recipe development, but you have the list of instructions and then you have the list of ingredients. Those are sort ordered by when they’re used. And then the other thing that you said that I think is really valuable, and it reminds me of the Mark Twain quote, I didn’t have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one instead. I feel like sometimes that can happen to people just in general, like any instructions, but especially if there’s a lot there and it feels like part of the hard work is removing the unnecessary information. Do you feel like that’s another kind of core pillar of communication within a recipe?

Raeanne Sarazen: Yeah, I mean, I think in general to write short is so much harder than to write long, and that goes for other type of writing and definitely for recipe writing. And I think to be clear is just, it’s hard today. I mean, first of all, we’re all bouncing around all over the place. And to actually sit down and actually think about how you’re going to write something and actually give a visual and a time and do those indicators that really are helpful. And as I say, to always write your recipe for the person who doesn’t know how to cook. And the reason why I say that is that I know there’s so many different ways that people can write a recipe. There’s no exact one right way, but what I feel is important is the person who’s going to improvise and not really follow your recipe and be that person at the end saying, oh, well, I use this instead of that and I know this and I would toss it in corn starch. It doesn’t really matter because there’s equally, as a number of readers who are going to take it and really want to follow that recipe to the T, they need to have their handheld, they need to really be able to be taken through it. And I feel like a successful recipe writer is going to write it so that person is successful.

Bjork Ostrom: To use music analogy again, it’s not like you’re going to leave a note out. It’s like, no, you have to document every note and it has to fit within the structure of whatever the key is. So in the world of recipe, we’re kind of entering into this unique stage where we have forever people create recipes. Now we’re kind of getting into a world where maybe it’s not a person that creates a recipe, maybe it’s created by a machine. And I’m perpetually fascinated by AI, everybody who listens is aware of it. And there’s this weird balance of is this a threat? Is this an opportunity? And there’s all those classic examples of there’s a pizza recipe that was created by ai, and it talks about using glue as one of the steps. And it’s like, okay, that’s not good, obviously, and people like to talk about

Raeanne Sarazen: That, but

Bjork Ostrom: That will happen less and less over time. But I also think there will always be a place for human-created content. So you talk about writing this book, it was over a long period of time, years and years, and the period of time that you’re writing it, AI kind of started to become a thing. What has that been like for you as you’ve come up against the world of artificially generated content as it relates to recipes?

Raeanne Sarazen: Okay. Well, my first answer is it took me almost five years to write this book. This book was peer-reviewed by other professionals. Each chapter went out to anywhere from three to nine reviewers and I interviewed, which I loved because I love talking to people and getting the knowledge from their head and bringing it down into tips for the people who are going to go into a chapter and look. And I say that because I feel like so many great people out there who are very knowledgeable, have so much knowledge in their head, and I love to be able to get it out and be able to help that person who’s reading and teach others. And I think that that was a very long process. But in this process, and the reason why I led up to saying this long thing, I knew AI was coming out. I knew people at the end of when this book was published that that topic was starting to sort of churn, but not really talked about like it is today. So AI is not talked about in my complete recipe writing guide, but I have

Bjork Ostrom: In the revised version,

Raeanne Sarazen: In the revised version, it’ll be the lead in. Well, okay, this is with most people in the field. Of course, I’ve tried it myself and I have come up with asking very specific questions to things, asking for very specific author or content creators. Give me Ina Garten’s lentil soup recipe or give me your lentil soup recipe. And probably the same things that everybody else is trying out. And I think that in a way, it is a fast way for content creation. So I think it is a great assistant for any of us, whether we’re just food writing, we’re going to go give a presentation, we need a content outline, we need a short quick answer on the history of something food related. But as it relates to recipes, this is, I think that it does work, and maybe this is something that will morph and keep iterating into something that maybe even I’ll use, but I don’t know, because I think what I feel like is missing, even from Google asking Chat GPT or lentil or gluten-free muffin is that it’s so dry, there’s no voice, there’s no person behind it. I have no idea. And I’m assuming it’s not tested because I ask for who is the content creator, who’s the author, and it says it’s like an amalgam of whatever number of the best gluten-free blueberry muffins or something. So I don’t know. I do think it’s going to be something that we have to embrace and something that I’m sure I will use in some way or form. I do use Chat GPT for myself already for other purposes, not recipes, but I think that it has a very blurry line between fact and fiction, whereas the critical thinking, where’s the voice? So I’d say use it maybe as a starting point, but it’s not something that I’m using myself right now.

Bjork Ostrom: Yeah, I guess I haven’t thought about this, but the key variable of testing, and it feels like if you were going to do something that is the average of multiple recipes, you aren’t testing that. And it feels like in the world of recipes, that’s a really critical step. Is the step of testing from start to end? Was it successful? And who knows over time how it evolves? But it feels like that’s one of the things that’s a little bit of a moat in the world of recipe content is one thing could be a little bit off salt. I remember in high school we made homemade ice cream where you put it in the coffee tin and you roll it back and forth, and it was like instead of teaspoons, we read tablespoons, it was user error. It wasn’t the recipe it is the whole lack of a copy editing team. But that as an example, if that’s just off a little bit, you’ll be able to see that and taste that. Whereas if it’s asking about some, tell me what price to earnings ratio means when you’re investing in a stock, it’s like, oh, it’s going to be able to nail that really well. So that’s an interesting analysis. Have you found that? And I think your point about the assistant makes a lot of sense. I was having a conversation with my brother-in-Law who’s a pediatric doctor asking him about AI, and he’s like, I don’t think it’s ever going to replace doctors, but it’s going to be a really great assistant. It’s going to help you think better and quicker. And the example that I thought of that we’ve talked about is like, Hey, you have a paragraph. You have three paragraphs and saying, Hey, can you help me get this down to one paragraph of really clear instructions to me? And then you still are looking at it, revising it, but it maybe saves you 45 minutes of work of remixing those three paragraphs down to one, and then you’re still putting the final touches on it. Is that kind of what you mean when you talk about being an

Raeanne Sarazen: Assistant? Oh, for sure. And I even think your example of a three paragraph long set of instructions that you are looking at and your brain is just numb and you’re like, I can’t even figure out something. And then you put it in and you’re like, say, nope, do it again. Do it again. You revise it, do it again. So it can act as an assistant to make your workflow faster. And I think that is super helpful. But I agree about the testing part and just because you can go Google and pull up whatever number of gluten-free blueberry muffins, I can tell you for sure from having tested and created many that they are different. And just because I can pull up 25 and give you one, that doesn’t mean that’s the one you’re going to want to make for your wife or for brunch or something. It does, the testing part matters. And I think if a recipe works, that’s ultimately what the person wants, not just that it can spit out a recipe.

Bjork Ostrom: Yeah, so that’s great. And I think of in this interview I had with Alex and Sonia, Alex talked about how he had created a GPT within chat GBT that does his editing. And again, it’s the kind of thing where it’s like you don’t just not read it and then publish it right away, but it acts as an assistant and it says like, Hey, look at this, or maybe this should be changed or adjusted. And that to me feels like today at least the sweet spot is like, Hey, this is an incredible tool. It can help you in the content creation process, but you will be at a competitive disadvantage if you remove the humanity

From the thing that you are creating, whether it be like you said, the voice or just multiple times testing and coming to understand that content that you are creating.

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Do you have any other thoughts around, in a world that is very saturated with content being recipes that are published online, how else can people differentiate themselves? Not even necessarily from AI, but how can people differentiate themselves as a recipe creator online?

Raeanne Sarazen: That is a really good question, and I’ll tell you why. Because I feel myself though, I did this book because I really wanted to have people who are creating content, new people, and people who’ve been around a long time have a resource that’s modern and could help them create better content to make them more confident to differentiate themselves. And I think what differentiates somebody is somebody who takes, and I know this just doesn’t spit out constant contact and constant content, meaning that I do find things entertaining, and I think that’s the focus. But I think the places that I really care about just when I read a novel is really good recipes that actually work.

So how do you differentiate yourself? It’s sort of like there’s so many people self-publishing novels now. How do you differentiate? I mean, I guess it’s story, it’s entertainment, but I think in the end, if that’s all you want, that’s right. But for somebody like myself, I care about you, Bjork giving me a recipe that I’m going to make tomorrow night for dinner and it’s going to work because I’m going to invite my neighbors over and it’s something that I want to taste delicious and that you tested it and you’ve tried it out and you’ve given me something that’s solid. That’s what I want.

Bjork Ostrom: And a huge part of that is number one, baseline are the ingredients, are the instructions accurate? Do they have everything they need? Number two, are they easy to follow? Am I going to understand this as I go through it? And then I think like you said, number three, this is really important and becoming more important. Am I drawn to it from an artistry perspective? Is their voice, is their story? Are the pictures good? And that feels like it’s a combination of those multiple things. Plus I would maybe add a fourth, especially in the world of digital content, which is does this person have me in mind and the problems that I have,

Raeanne Sarazen: And

Bjork Ostrom: Are we working together to solve those problems? It could be a diet, it could be for Pinch of Yum. Right now we think a lot about like, Hey, are there people with kids? We have a three-year-old and a six-year-old. And so we’re, and I say we, it’s like Lindsay, but I’m just drafting off of her success. Okay.

Raeanne Sarazen: Everything in a marriage is we,

Bjork Ostrom: Yeah, right, exactly. But what does it look like to create this thing for a family that have kids and both of the parents are working and it’s going to be successful? And that feels like where it starts to get kind of exciting.

Raeanne Sarazen: Well, that’s why I feel so strongly, it’s your audience. I think you need to know your audience. If you’re saying a family who has a 3-year-old and a 6-year-old is different than a couple who are now empty nesters, or somebody who is single and is trying to cook for one or occasionally two people. And I find it interesting as a dietician when I see recipes out there that are saying that something is healthy and there really isn’t a standard. And then they have the nutrition information and I’m like, okay, is that the way you’re educating that’s healthy? Or something that’s really fast and then buried in step two is an overnight marinade or something that’s really fast. But gosh, you just forced me to mess up three bowls and two sheet pans. And I’m like, I’m like, who is it fast for you? Do you have the sous chef and the kitchen cleaner in your kitchen? So I think that what is important is to really understand who your end user is, who’s making your recipe. And that is a successful recipe is when you make them successful, not to show somebody how much. Yeah. So it can include who’s your audience. For people who don’t cook are with limited resources.

Bjork Ostrom: And

Raeanne Sarazen: That’s a successful recipe too.

Bjork Ostrom: I think of a friend Beth who started Budget Bytes and every recipe that she’s creating, and there’s a team now, so it’s multiple people, but it’s like, here’s how much this costs per serving, and that’s their angle. But then they also have all of those additional elements of really clear instructions and story behind it. And I think the piece that you talked about with adding some of these modifiers quick or healthy, it’s where there starts to be some tension in the worlds that we operate, which is like somebody’s going to go out and they’re going to do SEO, they’re going to do keyword research, and they’re going to see like, Hey, if I add the modifier of easy or quick to this recipe, it’s going to be a little less competitive. There’s going to be a little more opportunity for me to do that. But if it’s not actually that

And people aren’t successful or it’s not quick, or it takes longer than you said, there’s a person on the other side who’s showing up and they’re going through the process of making that thing. And if you don’t deliver on the promise of the branding of the recipe, what happens is you’ve maybe cashed in on a really quick hit from a search result, but over a long period of time, what you’re not going to get is people who continue to show up and people who, instead of just doing a Google search, come to your site to start their search or your social account or whatever it might be. And I think that’s one of the things that we, as content creators need to be aware of is especially in a world where how people discover content is shifting, one of the most important things that we can establish is trust with somebody that they know that we say that they’re going to get. And oftentimes that means all of those different things we’ve talked about, it’s clear, it’s been tested it, it’s

Raeanne Sarazen: Reproducible.

Bjork Ostrom: It’s reproducible. Yeah. It’s all of those things. So as we’ve been talking, I’ve kind of thought about this within the context of a website, and I think a lot of people who are creating those recipes think about it within the context of a website. People come, they cook off of a set of instructions and ingredients. What do you think about different platforms and how recipes are presented on those? You can think about TikTok, you can think about Instagram, short form video, maybe Facebook. Are there considerations that we as digital creators should be thinking about as the way a recipe is presented changes? 20 years ago, it would’ve been a recipe card, it would’ve been a cookbook. It maybe would’ve been a grandparent scratching it down on a piece of paper, but now it might be like a 62nd TikTok video. What does that mean for people who are creating recipes?

Raeanne Sarazen: Well, I don’t know if this is going to not sound super positive for me, but I feel like there’s a difference. I mean, that to me is entertainment, and I don’t know. So it almost doesn’t matter if the recipe works anyway, because if somebody is scrolling on TikTok and they’re looking, learn how to make a gluten-free pasta dough, it’s got to be entertaining. And whether the recipe works or not, I think is less important because there’s so much content and noise out there. I don’t know if everybody who goes on these platforms, and maybe you can tell me, are they actually going to use that gluten-free pasta dough to make that meal at the end of the day, or even on the weekend? I don’t know. I think it’s more about entertainment than actually anything else.

Bjork Ostrom: Yeah, I think yes. And I also think there’s probably people who are making crescent roll wrapped hot dogs from TikTok, and part of it is almost like, can you achieve the recipe in a way where it’s easy enough to communicate in a 62nd video? I think for a recipe that is, and some people probably would even say, that’s not a recipe, that’s just putting some pre-made stuff together.

Raeanne Sarazen: It’s a recipe. Sure.

Bjork Ostrom: Yeah, it’s,

Raeanne Sarazen: There’s still no shame in that. I think we all have to do things fast. But again, it’s a visual recipe and the visual is teaching. And so if you actually want to give somebody that crescent roll that you’re making for dinner and rolling it out or whatever else the talker is going to show, it’s like there’s the actual cooking which you’re filming, and then there’s the actual written on the page or something that somebody can print out that’s like a separate instruction. So I just think of them as two different things and they can both work together. And I think actually working together on a lot of blogs and other things where you can actually have the recipe and you could click on a video and watch somebody make something, I think it’s really helpful.

Bjork Ostrom: Yeah, it’s almost like one of the nice things about a blog or an article or a recipe post is it’s easy to pair multiple forms of media. You can have the written stuff in a really nice way. You can have a video that goes with it. But one of the things I’m curious about is I was talking to different brother-in-Law, younger brother-in-Law, not the Doctor who, and we were talking about investing, and he was like, oh, yeah, I was talking about you should really think about whatever Roth IRA or something like that. And he was like, oh, yeah, that’s where you can put it in. After you get paid, you can take that money and then put, and I was like, how did you know about that? He’s like 21. He’s like, oh, TikTok, TikTok Finance. So I think that, and my guess is there are, I don’t know, hundreds of thousands of people who are hungry at the end of the day and pulling up TikTok and being Taco recipe. And so part of it is, I think our challenge is as creators, not only how do we be entertainment on these platforms like TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, but also if somebody is using that as their content to produce the recipe, how can it also then be functional in a way where they’re able to make it? And that feels like, I have never done that. Lindsay does it all the time. It’s what she’s doing. A lot of it is, it’s almost like a promotional piece

Raeanne Sarazen: To

Bjork Ostrom: Say, Hey, if you want the full recipe, go here.

Raeanne Sarazen: And

Bjork Ostrom: So that’s a little bit of the approach that we’re taking. It’s not like we’re trying to hit every step along the way and give people out the other side. But it’s almost like a curiosity for me. Is there an opportunity for people to create a piece of content where from start to finish you can watch it and have success with it just through the video itself. But it seems like maybe that would be a difficult thing, especially with a complex recipe. So

Raeanne Sarazen: Yeah, I think so. But I think one thing about the Roth IRA, which that sounds interesting, but I’m still old fashioned in the way that I have lots of friends in real life and I know who to call on what subject and what topic. And so if somebody wants a recipe on something for a specific holiday or for a party, or if they have a new dietary restriction with their father’s, got to reduce sodium or someone’s got diagnosed with Celiac, can you help me? Can you help me? I think of that Roth IRA thing as when you’re watching TikTok and you’re doing these videos, it’s like, where do you really want to get your content from a true financial advisor

Or somebody who’s just sort of talking on TikTok? If you have a newly new dietary restriction or something diet related, where do you want to get your content told? Do you want to scroll through TikTok and trust a lot of the things that I see I don’t kind of misleading or confusing and just sort of add to that anxiety of, I don’t know, I’m not saving enough or I’m not following the right diet. So I think to me, sometimes it could just be an overwhelming amount of a fire hose of information. Totally. And I’d rather pick up the phone and call the person. That’s how I wish cooking would go back to, in some ways just you pick up the phone and say, Hey, what am I supposed to do with X? But I know I’m, that makes me sound like a Luddite, but I’m just saying I think that you have to be really careful about the information that you’re getting on these platforms,

Bjork Ostrom: Especially as a consumer. It speaks to the, there is no, there’s much less friction. And so anybody can produce a piece of content. If that’s true and people are incentivized by creating the thing that is most viewed, then what you have is a scenario where you’re going to be tapping into potentially some of the worst parts of the human brain, whether that be fear or greed or anger. And so as consumers, I think we need to be aware of that. But as creators, there’s this weird opportunity then where it’s like, how do you do that in a way where if you were to create the comparable piece of content from a financial advisor, he’d be like, well, dollar cost average into index funds over a long career and prioritize tax sheltered. And nobody would watch it.

Raeanne Sarazen: No, it would’ve.

Bjork Ostrom: But if you were Bitcoin to the moon and you’re going to be a millionaire in a year, lots of people would watch it. And so it is maybe just an observation as creators that we need to balance that trust piece that we talked about where people can feel, and Lindsay talks about this, she got an email from a doctor who is, I feel comfortable sending my patients to your site because I know that I can trust the voice that you use, how you talk about content. That’s really, and that comes from years of making decisions around how to talk about content and how to talk about recipes. But also it’s hard when you can get a quick hit on some of these social platforms. So if nothing else, just like an observation on how hard it is as a creator to walk that balance

Raeanne Sarazen: And to capture the attention of people who are moving all over the place. And I think in terms of nutrition that I see, even doctors that are selling supplements or doctors that are selling courses and how to be in a healthy aging, they come at it, do you want to know the best foods that you can eat to avoid Alzheimer’s, heart disease, Diabetes, whatever. And so it’s

Bjork Ostrom: Like you just eat grapes, grapes and almonds.

Raeanne Sarazen: So it’s sort of like they get you with this idea of that there’s this magic answer, and every consumer wants that magic answer, that elixir, that’s going to make us healthier, live longer, prevent all these diet related diseases. But I just think that there’s marketing and then there’s just real life. And so it depends on if you need advice financially or you need to know what you’re going to have for dinner tonight, when two people work, that is really quick. I think people who are good at what they do, it shows, and I think even if it’s online or in real life, it’s where you go to for your information.

Bjork Ostrom: Yeah, that’s great. So let’s talk about the book a little bit more as we close out here. The complete recipe writing guide, five years of working on it, decades of knowledge that have gone into it. When somebody picks this up, what would your recommendation be? Do they work through it, cover to cover? Do you jump to a chapter that feels like it’s most applicable? And if you did have to point, let’s say online content creators who are writing recipes for a site or maybe social, where would be a good place for those people to start with the book?

Raeanne Sarazen: So the book has six chapters dedicated entirely to recipe development that focus on health and wellness. So anywhere from plant-based recipe development to food allergies for gluten, for celiac, fodmap, which is really big right now.

So if you’re really interested in understanding how to develop recipes, modify ingredients, understand if an ingredient, for an example, I see it all the time. People say that MSG has gluten in it, it does not. And I use it and I think it’s a great ingredient to reduce sodium and recipes. So if you really want to double check and really understand recipe development and ingredients, how to modify them, that’s where I would go. And if on your blog or on how you want to create your substack, you want to kind of put up a shingle as to being that health and wellness specific person set nutrition standards for your recipes, and those chapters will help you do that. The recipe writing chapter is the AP style guide, but just for recipes. So there was once, well, there is an AP style guide. It hasn’t been revised in a while, and there’s an old book that I think my book has replaced on recipe writing. That chapter is super helpful if you want to have testers either that I have lots of examples of testing sheets. So if you want to hire people to test your recipes or give them to your friends and your family, go to that chapter, you can kind of take what I’ve done, make it better for yourself, and look at how I’ve suggested on how you test your recipes and keep track of them. That’s a really

Bjork Ostrom: Useful, what you mean by keep track of them,

Raeanne Sarazen: Meaning that I’ve created Excel spreadsheets on all these different recipes. Who’s sending it out? What are the common ingredients? So how you can sort of the process of it and professional guidelines from, I used to run the test kitchen at the Tribune, how to actually do this because the testing is so key for your success in the recipes you write. And then the nutrition analysis chapter is super interesting because when I was writing it, I used to do a lot of nutrition analysis for food companies, and I do less of it now partially by intention. And I used to do it for a lot of publications, which now use a lot of automated calculators in their nutrition analysis. And I look at the nutrition analysis on blogs, and that’s a whole separate blog. We could do a podcast just on this topic. Yeah, totally. But I would say that’s a really good chapter to understand how to evaluate software programs to really understand the accuracy of your nutrition analysis. And if you ever have products that you’re trying to promote with a food company that’s a nutrition analysis in a deep dive. Super nuanced, it does talk about evaluating the software, which automated plugins to use. And then the last chapter I think would just be helpful if you’re sort of starting out in terms of really understanding the food styling photography and video part, and especially the food styling, which I think is really, really detailed and gives you the bottom line.

Bjork Ostrom: Yep. Yeah, that’s great. I think of the nutrition, we actually had a business a couple of years ago that did nutrition analysis and it’s really hard.

Raeanne Sarazen: Oh, it’s super hard.

Bjork Ostrom: And trying to do it in a way where it lifts the burden off of the creator from having to do a lot of it, but also then continues to be accurate. And I think a lot of times what happens is you have somebody who’s creator, you’ll bunch in the numbers and just kind of be on your way, but it’s like, oh, you actually have to spend some time with it making sure it’s all accurate. And there’s things like sauteing a thing and that changes

Raeanne Sarazen: Everything. I think about brining and marinating and deep frying and making things for their salt in the water, how much salt was absorbed. And that’s why it’s a label, FDA label. That’s one type of analysis. But I think for recipes, it could be less exact. It’s just

Bjork Ostrom: It’s not on the back of a product. It’s a

Raeanne Sarazen: Product tactic,

Bjork Ostrom: But you still want to be as accurate as possible. And it kind of goes back to that trust thing. It’s like you want to make sure that stuff is as tight as possible and complicated business, we sold it. We no longer own it, but still something important to think about. And especially in our world, there’s this thing called structured data and nutrition information is a part of that. And so you are incentivized in some way to include that, but you don’t want to do it as just kind of an afterthought or you’re just throwing the stuff in there and putting it up quickly because you want it to be as accurate as possible.

Raeanne Sarazen: And I think that chapter kind of will explain to people a bit about the nutrition analysis to understand why you shouldn’t be making claims about things or why even as a content creator, you don’t want to say that a pumpkin loaf in a nine by five pan has 16 servings just to get the nutritionals down because it’s not realistic and it’s sort of deceptive as a professional to be doing that.

Bjork Ostrom: You mean if it’s actually eight, don’t say it’s 16.

Raeanne Sarazen: Yeah, but I’ve seen that and I’ve seen a pound of cost to serve eight too, or

Bjork Ostrom: Process. I went to crumble cookie once, crumble, eat, crumble, and I was like, oh my gosh, this cookie only has like 350 calories in it. This is so good. And I was like, wait a minute, this doesn’t check out. Oh, a fourth of a

Raeanne Sarazen: Cookie

Bjork Ostrom: Has 350 calories in it.

Raeanne Sarazen: I mean, this is very funny because just last night I was looking at a package of, well, Garrett’s popcorn in Chicago, which everyone knows that is such a great place. Well, they have them in little individual bags. And I looked on the back and I’m like, oh, this is super interesting. And it was a serving for two. I’m like, it was barely a serving for 1. And so I thought, okay, it’s just sort of deceptive. So I always like to give people what is real life and accurate and not to sort of skew the numbers to sell something. And one other thing I was going to say that’s in my book that I think is helpful is that at the end there’s really good appendices. So there are sample style guides and I think style guides work for a food company as I gave a food company example, but they work for people when they’re creating content, even if it’s for a Substack newsletter, like how they want all of their content to appear. So when you hire somebody that or do it yourself, you’re following it and you’re creating it and sort of a form that you can use or just take mine from the book.

Bjork Ostrom: Yeah, that’s great. We’re just getting to the point now where we’re kind of looking at building out a team to test recipes. Previously Lindsay would make multiple recipes or if we have ideas that we’re workshopping, so that would be super valuable. When you talk about the Excel spreadsheets, I didn’t see this. Is that something where there’s a link to download? Is that how that works with the,

Raeanne Sarazen: That would be a link to email me and I am always happy to share.

Bjork Ostrom: Okay, perfect. Can we include your link in the show notes? Is that okay? Yes.

Raeanne Sarazen: Yeah, no, that’s fine.

Bjork Ostrom: Or include your email. We’ll do that if anybody has any interest in that. So super comprehensive, obviously a great guide for anybody who listens to this podcast. And I think also, there’s not going to be as many people listening to this, but you talked about this idea of maybe you want to document some maybe your family recipes, or maybe you’re not approaching it from a business standpoint, but you just want to get good, some people want to get good at writing, not because they’re going to accomplish a novel, but they just want to be a good writer. And I

Raeanne Sarazen: Think

Bjork Ostrom: Similarly, there’s an opportunity here to get good at recipes and documenting recipes

Raeanne Sarazen: And make a family cookbook.

Bjork Ostrom: Yes, love

Raeanne Sarazen: That. It’s a source for people like that. And I do think the information on the nutrition part is super helpful because I just find myself super confused by things that I get in my e email box every day. I’m like, what? There’s a new study and it’s sort of, I always say the advice in that way is try to eat the way your grandparents say it. Dietary advice has not really changed that much, but the problem I would say also for content creators, maybe that won’t sell very well.

Bjork Ostrom: Sure, yeah. Right. Which is back to that conundrum that

Raeanne Sarazen: We talked back to, that we’ve talked before. Right.

Bjork Ostrom: Maybe time for, we could cover that in another podcast. Rand, thanks so much for coming on. Really appreciate it. It’s called the Complete Recipe Writing Guide, and you cover 400 pages of information that’s really valuable and really helpful, so appreciate your time. And last question, where’s the best place for people to pick this up?

Raeanne Sarazen: I would say Amazon is probably the easiest. I know for book publishers that are not always loving that, but that is the easiest and fastest way to get it.

Bjork Ostrom: Yep. We’ll link to it in the show notes. Raeanne, thanks so much for coming on.

Raeanne Sarazen: Thanks, Bjork. It’s been my pleasure.

Emily Walker: Hey, this is Emily from the Food Blogger Pro team, and thank you so much for listening to that episode. We really appreciate it. If you liked this episode or enjoy the show, we would really appreciate you leaving a review or rating wherever you listen to your podcast. Episodes, ratings and reviews help get the show in front of new listeners and help us grow our little show into something even bigger. We read each and every review and it makes us so happy to hear when you’re enjoying the podcast or what you would like us to improve or change in upcoming episodes. All you have to do is find the Food Blogger Pro podcast wherever you listen to podcasts, whether it’s on Apple or Spotify or another player, and enter a rating and review. While you’re there, make sure to subscribe to the podcast so that you never miss a new episode. We really appreciate it so much and it makes such a huge difference for our show. So thanks in advance, and that’s all we have for you today. So have a great week.